increase/decrease with the amount of something

meijin

meijin

Senior Member
Tokyo
Japanese
Hi, let's say a survey found that older respondents feel the health benefit of yogurt more than younger respondents. The survey report says the following (I made up the sentence).

The percentage feeling the health benefit of yogurt increases with the age of the respondent.

What about if the survey found that heavy yogurt eaters feel the benefit more than moderate yogurt eaters? Please see the following.

The percentage feeling the health benefit of yogurt increases with the amount of (yogurt) consumption.

Does that make sense? If so, how can I express the same result in the opposite way?
I mean, what would the blue text be if I changed "increases" to "decreases"?

(The reason I want to express it in the opposite way is that it's probably better when I translate survey reports from Japanese into English.)
 
    • "The percentage feeling" is rather awkward as it is unclear whether "feeling" is a noun or a verb. Perhaps use "the percentage who feel" instead.

    I don't think you can use "of the respondent". The way the sentence is structured suggests respondents gave a simple yes/no answer, so respondents didn't give a percentage. However you can use "increases with age", or replace "percentage" with a different word such as "likelihood" (other changes would be needed as well).

    You don't need "amount" with "consumption"; if you want to include "amount" then "the amount of yogurt consumed" might be better.

    "Increases with" and "decreases with" are fine.
     
    Uncle Jack said:
    "The percentage feeling" is rather awkward as it is unclear whether "feeling" is a noun or a verb. Perhaps use "the percentage who feel" instead.
    Click to expand...
    I agree. That's one of the expressions I wanted to "test" in the thread.

    Uncle Jack said:
    The way the sentence is structured suggests respondents gave a simple yes/no answer, so respondents didn't give a percentage.
    Click to expand...
    But isn't that sentence the same as the following?

    The percentage who answered "Yes, I feel the benefit of yogurt" increase with the age of the respondent.

    Uncle Jack said:
    You don't need "amount" with "consumption"; if you want to include "amount" then "the amount of yogurt consumed" might be better.
    Click to expand...
    I agree, because in that sentence "consumption" alone cannot mean "the action of eating/drinking something".

    Uncle Jack said:
    "Increases with" and "decreases with" are fine.
    Click to expand...
    But if I only changed "increase" to "decrease", the meaning of the sentence will change too (it will mean the opposite).
    Maybe you'll see what I mean by reading the last sentence below that summarize the results.

    Over 70% of heavy yogurt eaters said they felt its health benefit.
    Nearly half of moderate yogurt eaters answered the same.
    Only about 30% of occasional yogurt eaters answered the same.
    In other words, the percentage who feel the health benefit of yogurt     decreases with consumption. :thumbsdown:
     
    Last edited:
    meijin said:
    But isn't that sentence the same as the following?

    The percentage who answered "Yes, I feel the benefit of yogurt" increase with the age of the respondent.
    Click to expand...
    Yes, and that one seems wrong to me as well. Percentage refers to "percentage of respondents", so what you are saying is:
    The percentage of respondents who answered "Yes, I feel the benefit of yogurt" increases with the age of the respondent.​
    It is confusing to have a proportion of respondents on one side of the comparison and a singular respondent on the other. Yes, I know that if you expressed it as a mathematical relationship it might well be fine, but it does not work so well in English, and is unnecessary as "increases with age" works fine.
    meijin said:
    But if I only changed "increase" to "decrease", the meaning of the sentence will change too (it will mean the opposite).
    Click to expand...
    Of course.
    meijin said:
    Maybe you'll see what I mean by reading the last sentence below that summarize the results.

    Over 70% of heavy yogurt eaters said they felt its health benefit.
    Nearly half of moderate yogurt eaters answered the same.
    Only about 30% of occasional yogurt eaters answered the same.
    In other words, the percentage who feel the health benefit of yogurt     decreases with consumption. :thumbsdown:
    Click to expand...
    I don't see the argument you are trying to make:
    Over 70% of heavy yogurt eaters said they felt its health benefit.
    Nearly half of moderate yogurt eaters answered the same.
    Only about 30% of occasional yogurt eaters answered the same.
    In other words, the percentage who feel the health benefit of yogurt increases with consumption.

    Over 70% of occasional yogurt eaters said they felt its health benefit.
    Nearly half of moderate yogurt eaters answered the same.
    Only about 30% of heavy yogurt eaters answered the same.
    In other words, the percentage who feel the health benefit of yogurt decreases with consumption.​

    Orble said:
    Your suggestion indeed makes sense, but a useful alternative you are probably looking for that would help you express the opposite, are the concepts of “direct proportionality” and “inverse proportionality”.
    See the simple explanation here: pythagorasandthat.co.uk/direct-and-inverse-proportion
    Click to expand...
    "Increases with"/"decreases with" is not as precise a relationship as "directly proportional to" or "inversely proportional to", and I think a little more care needs to be taken when using "proportional". However, if it fits the data it is an excellent term to use.
     
    Uncle Jack said:
    "The percentage feeling" is rather awkward as it is unclear whether "feeling" is a noun or a verb. Perhaps use "the percentage who feel" instead.

    I don't think you can use "of the respondent". The way the sentence is structured suggests respondents gave a simple yes/no answer, so respondents didn't give a percentage. However you can use "increases with age", or replace "percentage" with a different word such as "likelihood" (other changes would be needed as well).

    You don't need "amount" with "consumption"; if you want to include "amount" then "the amount of yogurt consumed" might be better.

    "Increases with" and "decreases with" are fine.
    Click to expand...

    I agree. But "perceive" is the word I want to hear. Because "feel good" has a meaning of its own I am reluctant to use "feel" in this case.
     
    Uncle Jack said:
    It is confusing to have a proportion of respondents on one side of the comparison and a singular respondent on the other. Yes, I know that if you expressed it as a mathematical relationship it might well be fine, but it does not work so well in English, and is unnecessary as "increases with age" works fine.
    Click to expand...
    You're right. I now see what you mean.

    Uncle Jack said:
    I don't see the argument you are trying to make
    Click to expand...
    Let me make it easier to understand, Uncle Jack. First, please see these:

    1a. The percentage of smokers increases as age increases.
    1b. The percentage of smokers decreases     as age decreases.

    2a. The percentage of smokers increases     with age.
    2b. The percentage of smokers decreases     with age.

    I don't know if "    as age increases/decreases" in 1a/b is idiomatic, but 1a means that the percentage of smokers is highest in the oldest group, while 1b means the percentage is lowest in the youngest group.
    In other words, 1a and 1b are explaining the same fact using the opposite expressions.

    Now, what does     "with age" really mean? Does it mean the same as "as age increases"? If so, unlike 1a and 1b (which mean the same thing), 2a and 2b would mean the opposite.
    If a Japanese survey report writer wrote 1a in Japanese, I'd be able to translate it as 2a in English. No problem.
    But if he wrote 1b in Japanese, I wouldn't be able to translate it as 2b, because 1b (original Japanese) and 2b (English translation) would mean the opposite.

    So, how would you translate 1b into English if you were the translator?
    (I'm asking this assuming "as age increases/decreases" is unidiomatic.)
     
    Ah, I see what you mean.
    meijin said:
    Now, what does "with age" really mean? Does it mean the same as "as age increases"? If so, unlike 1a and 1b (which mean the same thing), 2a and 2b would mean the opposite.
    Click to expand...
    Yes, that is correct. "Increases with" always has the two things going in the same direction (and "decreases with" is the opposite).

    meijin said:
    So, how would you translate 1b into English if you were the translator?
    (I'm asking this assuming "as age increases/decreases" is unidiomatic.)
    Click to expand...
    Well, "decreases as age decreases" isn't a common expression, but it is readily understandable, and if you really want to keep it this way round rather than saying "increases with age" then I see no reason to avoid it.

    I suppose it depends what you think is most important. I have no idea whether the Japanese expression you are trying to translate is a common one, but if it is and you want a common English expression to match then "increases with age" is probably the best option. If you are more concerned with conveying the original form of words then "decreases as age decreases" is fine. I cannot detect a difference in meaning, and the difference in emphasis is very slight.
     
    Thanks Uncle Jack. It's good to know that 'decreases as age decreases' (or 'decreases as consumption decreases' etc.) is fine.
    I'll probably use that, since I don't want my client to think "Why did he translate it in the opposite direction?" :)
     
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